More on Tongues...

I wholeheartedly agree with the principle that Scripture must be our only guide, especially when it comes to the issue of tongues and spiritual gifts. On one side there are people who only believe in tongues because of the experience they had with it at summer camp or the church they grew up in, while the other side is littered with people who don’t believe it because of an experience they had that “weirded them out” or the church they grew up in. If we are going to grow in our faith we must seek the truth about God, not just what we want to believe about God.

At the center of this debate are two questions: can the Holy Spirit come on Believers in varying degrees, and did the gifts continue after the Apostolic period (the death of the last Apostle at the end of the first century). For us to answer the first question we need to be clear precisely what it is we are talking about. When discussing “being filled with the Spirit” it is imperative that we keep in mind that this is not talking about us positionally before God, or if the Spirit can leave a Believer. As our study in Colossians has shown, our position before Christ is secure and the Holy Spirit’s presence in us unmoving. Instead, the question is if this presence can vary in degrees. I believe that a few Scripture references will help clarify this issue. Ephesians 5:18 says that we are to “be filled with the Spirit” (ESV). In Greek the verb “filled” is in the present tense imperative which means it is an ongoing command, the idea being that we are to continually be filled with the Spirit. If Paul was simply talking about the filling of the Spirit that comes at salvation a more likely tense choice would have been the perfect tense (the perfect implies an ongoing state as a result of a previous act). In addition Acts describes how Peter, along with the other Apostles, was filled with the Spirit at Pentecost. But later, in Acts 4:8 Peter is again filled with the Spirit when testifying before the Sanhedrin. After this instance he goes back to the gathering of Believers and after praying they all are filled with the Spirit (Acts 4:31). Taken in context with Ephesians 5:18 these instances, among others, seem to indicate that Believers can actually experience the Spirit to varying degrees (this argument is taken largely from Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology).

The second question, whether or not the gifts have continued to this day, is much more complicated and controversial. Since the most in-depth Scripture passage that speaks of tongues (1 Corinthians 12-14) seems to assume that some in the Church will have been given this gift, it seems the burden of proof lies on those who say that the gift of tongues has ceased with the close of the Apostolic age. One common argument, put forth by Alister Begg and other Cessationists, is that tongues was a sign of an apostle, and since there are no more apostles, there are no more tongues. This over simplification ignores the fact that Paul wasn’t writing to apostles in 1 Corinthians, and two of the three main instances of tongues in the book of Acts were not apostles. Another argument (which I believe Andrew adheres to) is that the sign gifts ended with the Apostolic age. But I am not aware of any verse that would separate the sign gifts from other spiritual gifts (Andrew can correct me if I’m wrong!). The closest would be Hebrews 2:3-4 but it seems to me to be a stretch to get Cessationist Theology out of this verse due to the fact that the author is also commenting on the influence of testimony, something that has certainly not ceased. Finally, 1 Corinthians 13:8 is the crux of most Cessationist’s argument. This verse says that tongues will pass away, which they take to mean at the end of the Apostolic age. But Paul links this disappearance of tongues to the coming of perfection, clearly a reference to the inauguration of Christ’s Kingdom at the end of time, not the end of the Apostolic Period.

Now let us just dip ever so slightly into the experiential. What I have been arguing here is that theologically it seems to make the most sense that the gifts, including the gift of tongues, have continued through the present day. But this should not be taken as an endorsement of much of what goes on in Charismatic circles. All too often emotion is the center of such experiences, not Scripture. But I feel that we should be extra cautious when questioning the role the Holy Spirit plays in our churches today. If we are going to deny the Spirit’s moving, let us make absolutely certain that we stand on solid biblical ground.

Bring on the tongues!!!!!

Kolburt and i disagree... how fun is that?!?!?!?!

First: we must make sure that experience isn't the dictating truth, but that the bible is. The bible is our standard, our truth, not what we have experienced. IF the bible said that there is no prayer language and a person got one...then it isn't a prayer language!!!! I am not saying that the bible says that, i want to emphasize that the bible is our standard for truth and life.

So throughout this discussion do not prove your point with experience but with scripture. This goes for me to, i believe that the Apostolic Sign Gifts (miracles, supernatural occurrences: healing a lame man, raising the dead, speaking to a crowd and everybody hears a different language) have ceased (not that God can't do them, but they are not common because God is done authenticating His gospel that way). But tonight i couldn't remember why i believe that from scripture. So i am going to study it! Could i be trying to fit my experience into scripture...

There are so many topics this brings up that i want to discuss, but lets just stick to this one.

My first question is why would God give a prayer language? (i am not using a negative tone i am just curious, why?) Also, where in scripture does it say that God gives a language different from our own to talk to Him with? I am not disagreeing with it, or agreeing, just not sure i know where this is coming from in the bible.

Anyway i am just picking from a thousand questions in this topic. 1,2,3 GO!!!!

BOOOYAAAHHHH

Let the games begin! This forum is a place where anybody and any opinion is most welcom. Please don't shout, if you get upset go to the fridge. The first thing you see eat it (mayo, jalapenos, rotten milk, easter eggs, 15 year old caramel syrup)...then come back and talk. This is a place where feelings will not be hurt, but where our brains and preconceived notions hopefully will.

So come on bring it on!!!

Andrew